Kemarin saya menerima beberapa emails dari seorang Islamophobe. Kayaknya email2 macam ini sudah menjadi semacam modus operandi para Islamophobes untuk disebarkan dengan tambahan list of selective verses, hadith and sirah yang di copy paste dari website buku "The Prophet of Doom".
Berikut ini diskusi saya dengan Islamophobe yang satu ini yang berlangsung kemarin. Saya share di sini dengan harapan mudah2an bisa bermanfaat bagi yang membutuhkannya. Mudah2an diskusi kemarin itu tidak sia2... Amin.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
your "holy" books are filled with chaos, decadence, murder, and pedophilia. mohammed is not a prophet except maybe a prophet of satan. if anyone reads the books of the koran and hadith and says "These are Holy" that person is mentally defective and in need of medical attention.
RESPONSE:
the burden of proofs is upon those who bring the accusation. everyone claims that they have truth, but they don't know what truth is.
what is truth? truth is factuality and logical. factual means every statement should be backed by observable facts. logical means every statement should be consistent without contradiction. every accusation must be backed by facts and must be logical. otherwise it must be tossed away by any sane person.
have you read the qur'an by yourself from cover to cover? i urge you to read it and see it for yourself. don't let others to deceive you especially those who already have preconceived ideas and hate in their heart. how could you judge about something justly if you already hate it in the first place without any proof?
when we talked about person in the past, we must rely on historical records that are reliable. we should not trust any report that are not reliable. and we read a biography of a person in the past, especially those that have long story, we should not read it partially, cutting and paste episodes from the story, which will make us not understanding the whole story correctly. it is like you are watching a long movie. we should watch it from start to end. this means we need to understand the context. without this, we may not understand the story correctly. good person can be portrayed as bad, and bad person can be potrayed as good. i urge you to read the story of the prophet (sirah, hadith) from cover to cover to understand the whole story and its context. do not rely on some books written by people who have hatred in their heart in the first place. i urge you to read it by yourself with sincerity and open mindness.
here is some links that you can use to read the qur'an and sira/hadith:
qur'an: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ArabicScript/sindex1.htm
hadith: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/riyad/default.htm
sira: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MH_LM/default.htm
i hope you read it and judge it by yourself with sincerety and open mindness.
you will find this journey of finding the truth very exciting and heart fulfilling. may god almighty, the creator of heaven and earth, guide you and all of us into the truth. amen.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
my friend i have studied islam for several years, i have read your books, DO NOT for a second think that i dont know your religion. i know it well, i know it inside and outside. their books are filled with some of the dumbest and stupidest things that have no explaination, i guess thats why things get abbrogated from them. like satan lives in your nose at night so before prayers in the morning you must snort water into your nose, or if you fall asleep while prayer the devil will pee in your ear. just stupid nonsense.
RESPONSE:
it seems what you can do is basically copy and paste selective qur'anic verses, hadith and sirah that have been taken out of taken, mostly taken from the prophet of doom book. i read this book and if you read it with sincerety you can find many fallacies in them (quoting from sources that not acceptable by scholars, from unauthentic, unreliable sources, quoting using wrong translation, quoting out of context, quoting without comprehensive knowledge about islamic jurisprudence, double standard, different standard, half-truths, etc).
about hadith that seems does not make any sense if translated literally, why not take it as an allegorical or metaphorical? many hadith have this style. also if you insists to translate this as literal, do you know anything about the nature of satan? can satan be observed by our five senses empirically? how do you judge then? and god knows best.
please free yourself from being deceived by people who hate islam without even bother to look the facts by yourself. read the qur'an from cover to cover with open mind. think other possibilities, not just one from your preconceived ideas. insha allah.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
islam is a cult. mohammed is a prophet of satan himself, if you would like more proof of this i can give it to you, but i see you have ignored defending your religion, actually your offense is your defense because nobody can defend something that rediculous and stupid. mohammed filled NO prophecies. mohammed was a violent sexually indulgent individual while Christ was peaceful, and pure. mohammed was a liar, a murderer and a pedophile, an ancient Jim Jones with no kool aid to poison his people, so he poisoned them with lies.
RESPONSE:
islam was not a new religion. it was a religion of adam and all prophets after him. it was sent down by god to reveal his true teaching that has been corrupted by many after jesus. islam taught people to return to worship only god and no others. it never teaches muslim to worship muhammad since he was only a human. if muhammad was a liar, he could have taught his followers to worship him and elevate him to high status like god, but not, he even asked people to keep sitting, not stand to up when he came to their gathering. before his prophethood he lived a rich life with his wife and enjoyed the high status in his community. after his proclaim of prophethood, his life was changed drastically, he was boycotted, opposed, and targetted for assasination by his own people. he even rejected the offer from his people to become their king with abundant of wealth with only one condition: stop teaching them to worship only god. he could've accepted their offer and live a happy life. but no, he chose otherwise. his life was full of struggles for bringing the message to the completion: worship only god almighty.
the accusation that prophet muhammad was deceived can be answered just by quoting verses from your bible: Matthew 12:22-28. jesus answered the pharisees when they accused him of deceived by devil, that THE DEVIL CANNOT STAND AGAINST HIMSELF. the qur'an is full of warnings about devil deceptions including prayer against him. prophet muhammad was also performing exorcisms in the name of god casting out devils from people who were possessed. these are found in reliable historical records. then if you follow jesus in matthew above, you could not say muhammad was deceived by devil since he was performing exorcism as jesus did and the qur'an teaching is against the devil.
i don't think you know my religion, since if you know, you won't be doing copying and pasting selective, mistranslated, out-of-context, and ignorant quotations from books written by hateful people intending to spread hate propaganda. only ignorants and bigots who would do such thing. i hope you are not one of them. again, the burden of proofs is upon those who bring the accusation. your accusation against the prophet muhammad do not have any reliable historical basis as well as sound argument. they are clouded by hateful feeling and fallacious arguments as i mentioned earlier before.
and god knows best.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
i learned islam because i wanted to know how people could be so cruel to my people in egypt (the coptic), i wanted to know why they cried out for israel to give them land, even tho the palestinians twice rejected offers for their own land for their own country, and yet they opress my people in egypt in violent ways that cannot be described and i have seen it with my own eyes. so i studied, so i could know why muslims do what they do. do not ever EVER refer to me as ignorant of your religion i think you are upset because i got you clocked, i know you by your belief. i am by no means a foolish person foolish enough to speak against something i know nothing about. your prophet commands you to destroy us, commands you to fight until the religion of the world is for allah, he commands no mercy, he commands fighting and bloodshed, he not only allows but teaches to hit women. i cannot believe in something so intolerant and violent as islam.
RESPONSE:
i don't know much about the cruelty of muslims in your country to your own people/coptics. but we should not overgeneralize this to all muslims. some muslims are extremists similar with some christians or some jews or some hindus. these extremists have wrong interpretation about their religion's teachings. we should not paint all with the same brush. sometimes people mix between politics and religions. we should know better than them. if islam teaches its followers to eradicate non muslims, there will be no christians or jews, or hindus left in egypt, syria, india, and other countries where muslim was majority and had power against them in the past. even nowadays, the majority muslim countries like indonesia and malaysia, non-muslims enjoying living even with more wealth compared with their own muslim neighbors.
i hope you see this point...
ISLAMOPHOBE:
i can know what is evil based on the Orthodox Church, islam is a direct opposite that. its an easy religion for a man and scary one for a woman. the koran and hadith are a joke, they are not divinely inspired hence the first 2 suras are very peaceful then allah changes his mind? then says that if these verses contradict the newer one replaces the old, completely negating the first 2 suras, that means allah changes his mind and didnt have it right the first time. or how allah tricked the people when Christ was crucified to make look as if He was crucified but he really wasnt, so allah also tricks people, that is evil. mohammed learned Christianity from a heretical nestorian monk who taught him all kinds of falsehoods. when mohammed supposedly seen the archangel he didnt know if it was the devil or allah. i asked a muslim cleric this question and he said this" when he went back to hadija he told her what he saw and she replied is he still there, mohammed said yes.hadija then lifted her dress exposing her private parts and asked mohammed do you still see him, mohammed replied no. hadija said then this is from allah, no holy angel would have looked upon me in that way." seriously?
RESPONSE:
please answer the following:
- do you know what the first 2 surahs you are talking about here? please let me know what you have mind.
- where is the verse(s) in the qur'an or the hadith that mention that the fighting verses in the qur'an abrogate or replace the peaceful ones?
the topic of abrogation should have basis on the qur'an and hadith. any opinion outside the qur'an and hadith cannot be used as basis, but merely opinion, there no legal binding to it.
- where in the qur'an that says god "tricks" people in the event of crucifixion?
- is it evil for god to protect his prophet from being killed or crucified by his enemy?
- where is the historical record that show this existence of heretical nestorian monk who taugh muhammad falsehood?
- who is this muslim cleric that said khadija lifted her dress after the first revelation? on what basis he said that?
ISLAMOPHOBE:
mohammed was just some power hungry guy comes along learns a bit of religion twists it and gets people to follow his version because its new. he then teaches that he knows the truth as god has revealed it to him and nobody else has the truth, jews, christians all of them got it wrong and or perverted it, i have it right the man claims. over time, as in islam, the peaceful ways start to turn more violent, the leader starts womanizing, Bukhari vol.5 no.236 "The prophet married aisha when she was a girl of six years of age and consummated hat marriage when she was nine years old", believing himself to be god or some prophet of god, as he grows more violent he also grows more and more delusional and paranoid. like in the hadith Bukhari Vol. 2 no. 167 " The sun eclipsed and the prophet jumped up terrified that it might be the hour (of judgement)" its pretty basic, mohammed did this very same thing, starting off rather peaceful and normal, over a progression of time he became more and more violent and more delusional with his sayings, maybe he was epileptic. this is actually in several areas of the hadith vol.1 nos. 1,2,3,4 etc. you know that mohammed said very insane things like adam was 90 feet tall Bukhari vol. IV no 543 narrated abu huraira:The prophet said,"allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall" or this Bukhari vol. IV no. 516 "Satan stays in the upper part of the nose all night." um what? or how about this scientific nonsense Muslim vol.III nos.5113 " a believer eats in one intestine while a non-believer eats in seven intestines" again, what? another connundrum. Muslim vol.IV no. 5612 It is prohibited to play chess. allahs apostle said, "He who played chess is like one who dyed his hand with the flesh and blood of swine." well i guess i must be spiritually inept cause these are just silliness to me, lol. this is why i pity muslims and i understand why they cannot conceive of Christ being God or the Trinity.
RESPONSE:
about islam peaceful turn violent:
i don't think you know the history of islam well. islam was peaceful at the beginning, and the followers were tortured and killed by the pagans until they were forced to migrate. even then the pagans still pursuing them wanted to crush them once for all. why is it wrong for these people to stand up and fight for their life? even after so many battles, when muhammad was finally victorious and entering his hometown makkah, he did not eradicate all his enemies but forgived them, including those who killed his daughter and his uncle and mutilated him. even after muhammad passed away, his shield was still in the hand of his jew neighbor in madinah for the collateral of his debt. if he was eradicating non-muslims, why on earth this jew still living in madinah as his neighbor???
the marriage with aisha:
first, the idea of being marriage to aisha beside saudah was brought up by one of his companion for him to remarry after the death of his wife, khadija. even before being proposed by muhammad, someone else had proposed aisha's hand from her parents. this shows that this was acceptable tradition back then. the pagans of makkah, the enemies of islam, who hated him could have used this if it's not acceptable to attack the personality of muhammad. but they did not since it's acceptable tradition back then.
about the eclipse:
the hadith reads: The sun eclipsed and the Prophet got up, being afraid that it might be the Hour (i.e. Day of Judgment). He went to the Mosque and offered the prayer with the longest Qiyam, bowing and prostration that I had ever seen him doing. Then he said, "These signs which Allah sends do not occur because of the life or death of somebody, but Allah makes His worshipers afraid by them. So when you see anything thereof, proceed to remember Allah, invoke Him and ask for His forgiveness."
what is so strange about this?? is it weird to be afraid of the day of judgement which noone knows when its time come? what's wrong with praying to god during eclipse?
about adam's tall:
does anyone know how tall was adam when he was created in heaven? do you know? then why could you tell that this statement was false?
about satan and intestines: this could be considered as metaphorical. do you have any evidence that this is otherwise? even the qur'an has metaphorical style of language as it was mentioned in one of the verses. what's so hard about understanding this?
about chess:
the hadith in sahih muslim does not have the word "chess" but "dice" that is associated with gambling. where do you get this word chess from??
about trinity:
it's not only muslims who do not understand trinity. but all people with common sense. it even took centuries for the church to formulate the trinity, there were divisions and sects that were labelled heretics by those who did not agree with them. tell why was this happening if jesus and all prophets ever mentioned this concept clearly and explisitly...
and god knows best.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
reading the history of islam invading in the 7th century, there was so much blood it was knee high. why?? because islam teaches this. and yes many muslims arent violent, because they dont know their religion like many other people of other faiths.
Qur'an:8:1 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Bukhari:V7B67N427"The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'
i have converted many muslims, you know how? teaching them about their own religion they know nothing about. women in particular are very easy to convert, many of them that come to america hate islam they are tired of being oppressed by it. i dont know how anyone can cling to a religion like islam. i know this is what you were taught but you must side with truth. ive done my research my friend, i was raised liberal, no God just reason, i changed because i sought truth, i sought out the true faith. you can keep going on and on but both you and i know where the truth is and it certainly is not islam.
RESPONSE:
where did you get your sources that islam caused so much blood being spilled knee high? please give me the references.
your quote of qur'an 8:1 is wrong. please check again your qur'an if you have any and have read it cover to cover as you claimed.
about oath/swear, people sometimes swear to not to do something because of something due to their emotion at that moment. this hadith mention teaches us that you need to expiate your oath/ pay kifarah (either feeding 10 poor people or if you can't do that fasting for three days). for example, the prophet used to eat honey and some of his wives dislike this and he swore not to eat honey again to make his wives happy. god reprimanded the prophet that he should not make the lawful food to become unlawful for him. the prophet then need to expiate his oath and pay the kifarah. what's wrong with this???
imho, muslims who converted to christianity are ignorant of their religion. they don't know anything about the qur'an, the hadith, the sirah, and their correct understanding. you seems to always say about the truth. what is the truth according to you? what is the definition?
ISLAMOPHOBE:
to me truth is definetly not islam. its a made up religion. 600 years after Christianity and we are supposed to believe a guy with many wives one of them a 9 year old? there are several sources "the arab conquest of egypt" is a great book, that actual quote comes from eye witness accounts, some of the historical manuscripts survived, while many of the bibles and such were burned, these are in the Coptic Library in alexandria, i have read them myself and was pretty shocked as i didnt know it was that bad. theres also "a lonely minority" "2000 years of coptic Christianity" those all touch on that subject if youd like to read them. the thing is, anything can be justified. i can accuse your faith and you can make excuses and justifications, and you can accuse mine and think that im making excuses and justifications, its a catch 22. one of my good friends from saudi arabia knows the koran by heart, he converted, and i dont think hes ignorant in any way. hes very smart and successful. he taught me alot of what islam itself teaches outside the koran, and i have to say i was quite disgusted. bottom line is there are metaphors, not everything is literal. i cant see it though in these blatantly violent verses, are those metaphors too? i mean when you really look at islam in a subjective way, you honestly see truth or do you see it as truth because it is what you have been taught is truth, thats the difference between you and me. i willingly chose this faith because of the evidence and because of my research of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism etc. so there is the difference in thinking right there, i was not taught this so studying these faiths, i studied unbiased, where as you were taught to believe islam. therein lies our quandry.
RESPONSE:
how can i admit a statement that i know that it's wrong, factually as well as argumentatively. you can see anyone's opinion whether they are atheists, agnostics, hindus, budhist, etc. it doesn't matter what belief they profess, it's their argument is the core important. we don't use ad hominem in our argument. how could i trust you as a true historian if i can see a lot of ignorance and fallacies in your argument?
here is some of them:
1. quoting invalid source, outside qur'an and hadith
2. quoting gross, wrongly translated verses, hadith, sirah
3. quoting unreliable source, e.g. quoting unknown, weak, fabricated hadith, sirah
4. quoting verses, hadith and sirah out of context, e.g. context of war is taken in general context
5. double standard, e.g. mocking verses of war in the qur'an but silent on verses of war in the bible which are worst and more barbaric
6. different standard, e.g. the marriage of aisha as an acceptable custom and tradition of 7th century arabia compared with western 21th century customs.
7. generalization, e.g. small minority extremists were taken as good example of all muslims and islamic teaching
8. historical twists, e.g. you don't give any reliable reference to your so-called historical "facts" but rather claiming yourself as historian...
9. straw man, putting words in others' mouths, e.g. you are forcing your islamophobic interpretation and the extremists interpretation of islam to all muslims forcing them believe that yours are the "true" interpretation.
10. red herrings, e.g. instead of answering questions, you bring other issues just by copying and pasting islamophobic selective verses/hadiths without even bother to check and learn the sources, language and context.
if you still need to discuss about this islam-christianity thing you need to remember there are points that we have to agree to disagree... i will respond to your message tomorrow insha allah...
ISLAMOPHOBE:
na i think we are done. your pretty indoctrinated by your family or your mosque whichever. so we have to agree to disagree. but look at these verses, they are from your books and tell me that islam is not violent. seriously read them.
Diskusi pun berhenti di sini.
Mudah2an ada manfatnya...
Berikut ini diskusi saya dengan Islamophobe yang satu ini yang berlangsung kemarin. Saya share di sini dengan harapan mudah2an bisa bermanfaat bagi yang membutuhkannya. Mudah2an diskusi kemarin itu tidak sia2... Amin.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
your "holy" books are filled with chaos, decadence, murder, and pedophilia. mohammed is not a prophet except maybe a prophet of satan. if anyone reads the books of the koran and hadith and says "These are Holy" that person is mentally defective and in need of medical attention.
RESPONSE:
the burden of proofs is upon those who bring the accusation. everyone claims that they have truth, but they don't know what truth is.
what is truth? truth is factuality and logical. factual means every statement should be backed by observable facts. logical means every statement should be consistent without contradiction. every accusation must be backed by facts and must be logical. otherwise it must be tossed away by any sane person.
have you read the qur'an by yourself from cover to cover? i urge you to read it and see it for yourself. don't let others to deceive you especially those who already have preconceived ideas and hate in their heart. how could you judge about something justly if you already hate it in the first place without any proof?
when we talked about person in the past, we must rely on historical records that are reliable. we should not trust any report that are not reliable. and we read a biography of a person in the past, especially those that have long story, we should not read it partially, cutting and paste episodes from the story, which will make us not understanding the whole story correctly. it is like you are watching a long movie. we should watch it from start to end. this means we need to understand the context. without this, we may not understand the story correctly. good person can be portrayed as bad, and bad person can be potrayed as good. i urge you to read the story of the prophet (sirah, hadith) from cover to cover to understand the whole story and its context. do not rely on some books written by people who have hatred in their heart in the first place. i urge you to read it by yourself with sincerity and open mindness.
here is some links that you can use to read the qur'an and sira/hadith:
qur'an: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ArabicScript/sindex1.htm
hadith: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/riyad/default.htm
sira: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MH_LM/default.htm
i hope you read it and judge it by yourself with sincerety and open mindness.
you will find this journey of finding the truth very exciting and heart fulfilling. may god almighty, the creator of heaven and earth, guide you and all of us into the truth. amen.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
my friend i have studied islam for several years, i have read your books, DO NOT for a second think that i dont know your religion. i know it well, i know it inside and outside. their books are filled with some of the dumbest and stupidest things that have no explaination, i guess thats why things get abbrogated from them. like satan lives in your nose at night so before prayers in the morning you must snort water into your nose, or if you fall asleep while prayer the devil will pee in your ear. just stupid nonsense.
RESPONSE:
it seems what you can do is basically copy and paste selective qur'anic verses, hadith and sirah that have been taken out of taken, mostly taken from the prophet of doom book. i read this book and if you read it with sincerety you can find many fallacies in them (quoting from sources that not acceptable by scholars, from unauthentic, unreliable sources, quoting using wrong translation, quoting out of context, quoting without comprehensive knowledge about islamic jurisprudence, double standard, different standard, half-truths, etc).
about hadith that seems does not make any sense if translated literally, why not take it as an allegorical or metaphorical? many hadith have this style. also if you insists to translate this as literal, do you know anything about the nature of satan? can satan be observed by our five senses empirically? how do you judge then? and god knows best.
please free yourself from being deceived by people who hate islam without even bother to look the facts by yourself. read the qur'an from cover to cover with open mind. think other possibilities, not just one from your preconceived ideas. insha allah.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
islam is a cult. mohammed is a prophet of satan himself, if you would like more proof of this i can give it to you, but i see you have ignored defending your religion, actually your offense is your defense because nobody can defend something that rediculous and stupid. mohammed filled NO prophecies. mohammed was a violent sexually indulgent individual while Christ was peaceful, and pure. mohammed was a liar, a murderer and a pedophile, an ancient Jim Jones with no kool aid to poison his people, so he poisoned them with lies.
RESPONSE:
islam was not a new religion. it was a religion of adam and all prophets after him. it was sent down by god to reveal his true teaching that has been corrupted by many after jesus. islam taught people to return to worship only god and no others. it never teaches muslim to worship muhammad since he was only a human. if muhammad was a liar, he could have taught his followers to worship him and elevate him to high status like god, but not, he even asked people to keep sitting, not stand to up when he came to their gathering. before his prophethood he lived a rich life with his wife and enjoyed the high status in his community. after his proclaim of prophethood, his life was changed drastically, he was boycotted, opposed, and targetted for assasination by his own people. he even rejected the offer from his people to become their king with abundant of wealth with only one condition: stop teaching them to worship only god. he could've accepted their offer and live a happy life. but no, he chose otherwise. his life was full of struggles for bringing the message to the completion: worship only god almighty.
the accusation that prophet muhammad was deceived can be answered just by quoting verses from your bible: Matthew 12:22-28. jesus answered the pharisees when they accused him of deceived by devil, that THE DEVIL CANNOT STAND AGAINST HIMSELF. the qur'an is full of warnings about devil deceptions including prayer against him. prophet muhammad was also performing exorcisms in the name of god casting out devils from people who were possessed. these are found in reliable historical records. then if you follow jesus in matthew above, you could not say muhammad was deceived by devil since he was performing exorcism as jesus did and the qur'an teaching is against the devil.
i don't think you know my religion, since if you know, you won't be doing copying and pasting selective, mistranslated, out-of-context, and ignorant quotations from books written by hateful people intending to spread hate propaganda. only ignorants and bigots who would do such thing. i hope you are not one of them. again, the burden of proofs is upon those who bring the accusation. your accusation against the prophet muhammad do not have any reliable historical basis as well as sound argument. they are clouded by hateful feeling and fallacious arguments as i mentioned earlier before.
and god knows best.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
i learned islam because i wanted to know how people could be so cruel to my people in egypt (the coptic), i wanted to know why they cried out for israel to give them land, even tho the palestinians twice rejected offers for their own land for their own country, and yet they opress my people in egypt in violent ways that cannot be described and i have seen it with my own eyes. so i studied, so i could know why muslims do what they do. do not ever EVER refer to me as ignorant of your religion i think you are upset because i got you clocked, i know you by your belief. i am by no means a foolish person foolish enough to speak against something i know nothing about. your prophet commands you to destroy us, commands you to fight until the religion of the world is for allah, he commands no mercy, he commands fighting and bloodshed, he not only allows but teaches to hit women. i cannot believe in something so intolerant and violent as islam.
RESPONSE:
i don't know much about the cruelty of muslims in your country to your own people/coptics. but we should not overgeneralize this to all muslims. some muslims are extremists similar with some christians or some jews or some hindus. these extremists have wrong interpretation about their religion's teachings. we should not paint all with the same brush. sometimes people mix between politics and religions. we should know better than them. if islam teaches its followers to eradicate non muslims, there will be no christians or jews, or hindus left in egypt, syria, india, and other countries where muslim was majority and had power against them in the past. even nowadays, the majority muslim countries like indonesia and malaysia, non-muslims enjoying living even with more wealth compared with their own muslim neighbors.
i hope you see this point...
ISLAMOPHOBE:
i can know what is evil based on the Orthodox Church, islam is a direct opposite that. its an easy religion for a man and scary one for a woman. the koran and hadith are a joke, they are not divinely inspired hence the first 2 suras are very peaceful then allah changes his mind? then says that if these verses contradict the newer one replaces the old, completely negating the first 2 suras, that means allah changes his mind and didnt have it right the first time. or how allah tricked the people when Christ was crucified to make look as if He was crucified but he really wasnt, so allah also tricks people, that is evil. mohammed learned Christianity from a heretical nestorian monk who taught him all kinds of falsehoods. when mohammed supposedly seen the archangel he didnt know if it was the devil or allah. i asked a muslim cleric this question and he said this" when he went back to hadija he told her what he saw and she replied is he still there, mohammed said yes.hadija then lifted her dress exposing her private parts and asked mohammed do you still see him, mohammed replied no. hadija said then this is from allah, no holy angel would have looked upon me in that way." seriously?
RESPONSE:
please answer the following:
- do you know what the first 2 surahs you are talking about here? please let me know what you have mind.
- where is the verse(s) in the qur'an or the hadith that mention that the fighting verses in the qur'an abrogate or replace the peaceful ones?
the topic of abrogation should have basis on the qur'an and hadith. any opinion outside the qur'an and hadith cannot be used as basis, but merely opinion, there no legal binding to it.
- where in the qur'an that says god "tricks" people in the event of crucifixion?
- is it evil for god to protect his prophet from being killed or crucified by his enemy?
- where is the historical record that show this existence of heretical nestorian monk who taugh muhammad falsehood?
- who is this muslim cleric that said khadija lifted her dress after the first revelation? on what basis he said that?
ISLAMOPHOBE:
mohammed was just some power hungry guy comes along learns a bit of religion twists it and gets people to follow his version because its new. he then teaches that he knows the truth as god has revealed it to him and nobody else has the truth, jews, christians all of them got it wrong and or perverted it, i have it right the man claims. over time, as in islam, the peaceful ways start to turn more violent, the leader starts womanizing, Bukhari vol.5 no.236 "The prophet married aisha when she was a girl of six years of age and consummated hat marriage when she was nine years old", believing himself to be god or some prophet of god, as he grows more violent he also grows more and more delusional and paranoid. like in the hadith Bukhari Vol. 2 no. 167 " The sun eclipsed and the prophet jumped up terrified that it might be the hour (of judgement)" its pretty basic, mohammed did this very same thing, starting off rather peaceful and normal, over a progression of time he became more and more violent and more delusional with his sayings, maybe he was epileptic. this is actually in several areas of the hadith vol.1 nos. 1,2,3,4 etc. you know that mohammed said very insane things like adam was 90 feet tall Bukhari vol. IV no 543 narrated abu huraira:The prophet said,"allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall" or this Bukhari vol. IV no. 516 "Satan stays in the upper part of the nose all night." um what? or how about this scientific nonsense Muslim vol.III nos.5113 " a believer eats in one intestine while a non-believer eats in seven intestines" again, what? another connundrum. Muslim vol.IV no. 5612 It is prohibited to play chess. allahs apostle said, "He who played chess is like one who dyed his hand with the flesh and blood of swine." well i guess i must be spiritually inept cause these are just silliness to me, lol. this is why i pity muslims and i understand why they cannot conceive of Christ being God or the Trinity.
RESPONSE:
about islam peaceful turn violent:
i don't think you know the history of islam well. islam was peaceful at the beginning, and the followers were tortured and killed by the pagans until they were forced to migrate. even then the pagans still pursuing them wanted to crush them once for all. why is it wrong for these people to stand up and fight for their life? even after so many battles, when muhammad was finally victorious and entering his hometown makkah, he did not eradicate all his enemies but forgived them, including those who killed his daughter and his uncle and mutilated him. even after muhammad passed away, his shield was still in the hand of his jew neighbor in madinah for the collateral of his debt. if he was eradicating non-muslims, why on earth this jew still living in madinah as his neighbor???
the marriage with aisha:
first, the idea of being marriage to aisha beside saudah was brought up by one of his companion for him to remarry after the death of his wife, khadija. even before being proposed by muhammad, someone else had proposed aisha's hand from her parents. this shows that this was acceptable tradition back then. the pagans of makkah, the enemies of islam, who hated him could have used this if it's not acceptable to attack the personality of muhammad. but they did not since it's acceptable tradition back then.
about the eclipse:
the hadith reads: The sun eclipsed and the Prophet got up, being afraid that it might be the Hour (i.e. Day of Judgment). He went to the Mosque and offered the prayer with the longest Qiyam, bowing and prostration that I had ever seen him doing. Then he said, "These signs which Allah sends do not occur because of the life or death of somebody, but Allah makes His worshipers afraid by them. So when you see anything thereof, proceed to remember Allah, invoke Him and ask for His forgiveness."
what is so strange about this?? is it weird to be afraid of the day of judgement which noone knows when its time come? what's wrong with praying to god during eclipse?
about adam's tall:
does anyone know how tall was adam when he was created in heaven? do you know? then why could you tell that this statement was false?
about satan and intestines: this could be considered as metaphorical. do you have any evidence that this is otherwise? even the qur'an has metaphorical style of language as it was mentioned in one of the verses. what's so hard about understanding this?
about chess:
the hadith in sahih muslim does not have the word "chess" but "dice" that is associated with gambling. where do you get this word chess from??
about trinity:
it's not only muslims who do not understand trinity. but all people with common sense. it even took centuries for the church to formulate the trinity, there were divisions and sects that were labelled heretics by those who did not agree with them. tell why was this happening if jesus and all prophets ever mentioned this concept clearly and explisitly...
and god knows best.
ISLAMOPHOBE:
reading the history of islam invading in the 7th century, there was so much blood it was knee high. why?? because islam teaches this. and yes many muslims arent violent, because they dont know their religion like many other people of other faiths.
Qur'an:8:1 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Bukhari:V7B67N427"The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'
i have converted many muslims, you know how? teaching them about their own religion they know nothing about. women in particular are very easy to convert, many of them that come to america hate islam they are tired of being oppressed by it. i dont know how anyone can cling to a religion like islam. i know this is what you were taught but you must side with truth. ive done my research my friend, i was raised liberal, no God just reason, i changed because i sought truth, i sought out the true faith. you can keep going on and on but both you and i know where the truth is and it certainly is not islam.
RESPONSE:
where did you get your sources that islam caused so much blood being spilled knee high? please give me the references.
your quote of qur'an 8:1 is wrong. please check again your qur'an if you have any and have read it cover to cover as you claimed.
about oath/swear, people sometimes swear to not to do something because of something due to their emotion at that moment. this hadith mention teaches us that you need to expiate your oath/ pay kifarah (either feeding 10 poor people or if you can't do that fasting for three days). for example, the prophet used to eat honey and some of his wives dislike this and he swore not to eat honey again to make his wives happy. god reprimanded the prophet that he should not make the lawful food to become unlawful for him. the prophet then need to expiate his oath and pay the kifarah. what's wrong with this???
imho, muslims who converted to christianity are ignorant of their religion. they don't know anything about the qur'an, the hadith, the sirah, and their correct understanding. you seems to always say about the truth. what is the truth according to you? what is the definition?
ISLAMOPHOBE:
to me truth is definetly not islam. its a made up religion. 600 years after Christianity and we are supposed to believe a guy with many wives one of them a 9 year old? there are several sources "the arab conquest of egypt" is a great book, that actual quote comes from eye witness accounts, some of the historical manuscripts survived, while many of the bibles and such were burned, these are in the Coptic Library in alexandria, i have read them myself and was pretty shocked as i didnt know it was that bad. theres also "a lonely minority" "2000 years of coptic Christianity" those all touch on that subject if youd like to read them. the thing is, anything can be justified. i can accuse your faith and you can make excuses and justifications, and you can accuse mine and think that im making excuses and justifications, its a catch 22. one of my good friends from saudi arabia knows the koran by heart, he converted, and i dont think hes ignorant in any way. hes very smart and successful. he taught me alot of what islam itself teaches outside the koran, and i have to say i was quite disgusted. bottom line is there are metaphors, not everything is literal. i cant see it though in these blatantly violent verses, are those metaphors too? i mean when you really look at islam in a subjective way, you honestly see truth or do you see it as truth because it is what you have been taught is truth, thats the difference between you and me. i willingly chose this faith because of the evidence and because of my research of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism etc. so there is the difference in thinking right there, i was not taught this so studying these faiths, i studied unbiased, where as you were taught to believe islam. therein lies our quandry.
RESPONSE:
how can i admit a statement that i know that it's wrong, factually as well as argumentatively. you can see anyone's opinion whether they are atheists, agnostics, hindus, budhist, etc. it doesn't matter what belief they profess, it's their argument is the core important. we don't use ad hominem in our argument. how could i trust you as a true historian if i can see a lot of ignorance and fallacies in your argument?
here is some of them:
1. quoting invalid source, outside qur'an and hadith
2. quoting gross, wrongly translated verses, hadith, sirah
3. quoting unreliable source, e.g. quoting unknown, weak, fabricated hadith, sirah
4. quoting verses, hadith and sirah out of context, e.g. context of war is taken in general context
5. double standard, e.g. mocking verses of war in the qur'an but silent on verses of war in the bible which are worst and more barbaric
6. different standard, e.g. the marriage of aisha as an acceptable custom and tradition of 7th century arabia compared with western 21th century customs.
7. generalization, e.g. small minority extremists were taken as good example of all muslims and islamic teaching
8. historical twists, e.g. you don't give any reliable reference to your so-called historical "facts" but rather claiming yourself as historian...
9. straw man, putting words in others' mouths, e.g. you are forcing your islamophobic interpretation and the extremists interpretation of islam to all muslims forcing them believe that yours are the "true" interpretation.
10. red herrings, e.g. instead of answering questions, you bring other issues just by copying and pasting islamophobic selective verses/hadiths without even bother to check and learn the sources, language and context.
if you still need to discuss about this islam-christianity thing you need to remember there are points that we have to agree to disagree... i will respond to your message tomorrow insha allah...
ISLAMOPHOBE:
na i think we are done. your pretty indoctrinated by your family or your mosque whichever. so we have to agree to disagree. but look at these verses, they are from your books and tell me that islam is not violent. seriously read them.
Diskusi pun berhenti di sini.
Mudah2an ada manfatnya...
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